Posted by JR Weiss on May 4, 2009, 4:52 pm
. . .
>> In order to plug the surge suppressor into the outlet, I had to add
>> a two-prong to a three-prong connector and the whole thing fits
>> loosely into the wall; it is feeble and gets disconnected very easily.
>> The cable that connects the surge processor to the outlet is kind of
>> warmish at the touch and it makes me nervous.
>> MY QUESTION:
>> Am I worried about nothing?
> Yes, none of the items plugged into that surge supressor
> are high current devices, so there is no fire hazard etc.
>> Can I leave everything as is, thinking "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."?
> Yes, but I would personally just get the outlet itself replaced
> so that the surge suppressor doesnt fall out easily.
You are absolutely clueless, as usual!
Any electric cable that gets "warmish" enough to make someone "nervous," when
there is insignificant power draw, is DANGEROUS!
Posted by westom on May 4, 2009, 6:20 pm
> I have a small bedroom that has only two outlets. Both outlets have an
> extension cord to which several small appliances are attached and used
> only as needed.
The electrician is correct about the expense. Because of bedroom
fires especially created by extension cords, bedroom circuits must now
be connected through an AGFI - a special safety circuit breaker
located in the breaker box.
That power strip protector has created a further safety problem. It
can only connect to a three wire receptacle.
As another noted, that protector should not be warm with such a
trivial load. However power strip protector creates another threat.
See these scary pictures including one from a fire marshal that
describes why that strip creates the threat:
http://www.hanford.gov/rl/?page=556&parent=554
http://www.westwhitelandfire.com/Articles/Surge%20Protectors.pdf
http://www.ddxg.net/old/surge_protectors.htm
http://www.zerosurge.com/HTML/movs.html
http://tinyurl.com/3x73ol
http://www3.cw56.com/news/articles/local/BO63312/
http://www.nmsu.edu/~safety/news/lesson-learned/surgeprotectorfire.htm
Better is to get a power strip without protection - that costs under
$5 - to increase your safety. A power strip with significant
insulation because extension cords are a serious source of bedroom
fires.
But a best solution is to get the bedroom properly wired with three
wire receptacles and the AGFI protector.
For surge protection, the better solution is one 'whole house'
protector in the breaker box. To have surge protection, building
earthing must be upgraded and exceed post 1990 National Electrical
Code requirements. Your earthing is probably woefully insufficient
meaning no surge protector - even the 'whole house' type - will
provide protection.
Even with only two wire receptacles, one 'whole house' protector and
earthing will provide surge protection for everything in your bedroom
and everything in the house. After all, if you have a surge, what
needs the most protection? Smoke detectors that are now required to
be connected to AC mains. Just another appliance protected if you
upgrade earthing an install only one 'whole house' protector.
A power strip surge protector is warm with a trial load from those
seven appliances? See scary pictures that demonstrate a problem
created by power strip protectors and that does not exist with power
strips.
Posted by meow2222 on May 4, 2009, 8:12 pm
westom wrote:
> > I have a small bedroom that has only two outlets. Both outlets have an
> > extension cord to which several small appliances are attached and used
> > only as needed.
> The electrician is correct about the expense. Because of bedroom
> fires especially created by extension cords, bedroom circuits must now
> be connected through an AGFI - a special safety circuit breaker
> located in the breaker box.
> That power strip protector has created a further safety problem. It
> can only connect to a three wire receptacle.
> As another noted, that protector should not be warm with such a
> trivial load. However power strip protector creates another threat.
> See these scary pictures including one from a fire marshal that
> describes why that strip creates the threat:
> http://www.hanford.gov/rl/?page=556&parent=554
> http://www.westwhitelandfire.com/Articles/Surge%20Protectors.pdf
> http://www.ddxg.net/old/surge_protectors.htm
> http://www.zerosurge.com/HTML/movs.html
> http://tinyurl.com/3x73ol
> http://www3.cw56.com/news/articles/local/BO63312/
> http://www.nmsu.edu/~safety/news/lesson-learned/surgeprotectorfire.htm
> Better is to get a power strip without protection - that costs under
> $5 - to increase your safety. A power strip with significant
> insulation because extension cords are a serious source of bedroom
> fires.
> But a best solution is to get the bedroom properly wired with three
> wire receptacles and the AGFI protector.
> For surge protection, the better solution is one 'whole house'
> protector in the breaker box. To have surge protection, building
> earthing must be upgraded and exceed post 1990 National Electrical
> Code requirements. Your earthing is probably woefully insufficient
> meaning no surge protector - even the 'whole house' type - will
> provide protection.
> Even with only two wire receptacles, one 'whole house' protector and
> earthing will provide surge protection for everything in your bedroom
> and everything in the house. After all, if you have a surge, what
> needs the most protection? Smoke detectors that are now required to
> be connected to AC mains. Just another appliance protected if you
> upgrade earthing an install only one 'whole house' protector.
> A power strip surge protector is warm with a trial load from those
> seven appliances? See scary pictures that demonstrate a problem
> created by power strip protectors and that does not exist with power
> strips.
There are a few obvious safety issues.
1. The surge protector - these occasinally catch fire. Safer to have
an extension lead with no inbuilt surge suppressor.
2. Plug falling out, can cause arcing and fire. Taping or wedging it
in will stop it falling half out, but wont tighten the grip the socket
has on the pug pins.
3. Surge suppressor on an ungrounded supply will create a (low)
current path from live to ground socket, which isnt exactly a safety
feature
4. Warm wire - why? If its a nearby warm source, no problem, but if
its the electrical stuff producing the warmth, problem!
I cant help with solutions, here (UK not US) such poor house wiring
would be condemned and disconnected on sight, and is as good as non-
existant.
NT
Posted by westom on May 5, 2009, 12:45 am
> That probably depends on local code. Around here GFI's are only
> required around water. Bathrooms, laundry areas, etc.
> Last I knew anyway.
Not GFCI. AFGI which is defined since the 2002 National Electrical
Code; is now required for all bedroom circuits. Local codes are
somehow different from the National Electrical code? You should doubt
it.
Nobody implied an entire house must be brought up to this year's
code. It's called grandfathering. But if an electrician were to
install new circuits, those circuits must comply with current code.
For bedrooms, that means AFGI.
Posted by Vic Smith on May 5, 2009, 8:43 am
wrote:
>> That probably depends on local code. Around here GFI's are only
>> required around water. Bathrooms, laundry areas, etc.
>> Last I knew anyway.
> Not GFCI. AFGI which is defined since the 2002 National Electrical
>Code; is now required for all bedroom circuits. Local codes are
>somehow different from the National Electrical code? You should doubt
>it.
> Nobody implied an entire house must be brought up to this year's
>code. It's called grandfathering. But if an electrician were to
>install new circuits, those circuits must comply with current code.
>For bedrooms, that means AFGI.
Actually it's AFCI. Hadn't heard of them. Been a while since I did
any electric. Thanks. Might get them put in my box.
One of my daughters is dating an electric contractor. (-:
Here's a pretty good article on AFCI.
An AFCI breaker costs @30 bucks. That's the easy part.
http://www.askthebuilder.com/320_New_Arc_Fault_Breakers_-_Small_Price_To_Pay_For_Peace_Of_Mind.shtml
Note that Vermont requires AFCI for ALL residential living area
circuits. ALWAYS know local codes.
As far as grandfathering, again it's determined locally.
What you said is *normally* true.
A local licensed electrician should know what's up. A good one,
anyway.
That's who I would use for any wiring, though plenty of people can do
it themselves if they want to study up. I'm not recommending that.
There's a reason for licensing. But it's doable.
I've been through this in Chicago, and all isn't as it seems.
See below as an example of the importance of "locality."
And I can tell you from personal experience that in some localities
the inspector is king, and decides what gets grandfathered.
http://www.necanet.org/job/compliance/?fa=stateRegs
"Codes and Enforcement
This publication covers state safety requirements for electrical
construction. Most states adopt by reference the National Electrical
Code (ANSI/NFPA standard 70), sometimes with local changes. Some also
adopt by reference the National Electrical Safety Code (ANSI/IEEE
standard C2). Many states with statewide electrical codes allow local
jurisdictions to adopt more stringent requirements. Some states have
no electrical codes or enforcement authority, leaving these matters
entirely to local jurisdictions."
--Vic
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>> a two-prong to a three-prong connector and the whole thing fits
>> loosely into the wall; it is feeble and gets disconnected very easily.
>> The cable that connects the surge processor to the outlet is kind of
>> warmish at the touch and it makes me nervous.
>> MY QUESTION:
>> Am I worried about nothing?
> Yes, none of the items plugged into that surge supressor
> are high current devices, so there is no fire hazard etc.
>> Can I leave everything as is, thinking "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."?
> Yes, but I would personally just get the outlet itself replaced
> so that the surge suppressor doesnt fall out easily.